RI atheist teen gets prayer taken down from school[views:21442][posts:161]_______________________________ [Jan 27,2012 8:11pm - hlrie ""] Ugh, bored. It was first used as a term in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802, specifially, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." He talked about this a lot in his opposition of government intervention in religion and its practice. In the 1st amendment it says this... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." In no place is it written we shall protect the non-believers. There is only reference to the freedom to practice beliefs without the government being involved. |
| _______________________________ [Jan 27,2012 8:12pm - hlrie ""] DestroyYouAlot said: Samefag said: hlrie said:Explanations are irrelevant to those who don't understand history and get butthurt over comments not directed at them. Ouch, my vagina. Explain the part of history where I don't understand history and get butthurt at comments not directed at me. See, "this entire thread". Also, this ^ |
| ______________________________________ [Jan 27,2012 8:57pm - the_reverend ""] Op is samethomasjefferstone. |
| __________________________________ [Jan 27,2012 9:22pm - Samefag ""] hlrie said: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." You don't consider the government ruling to remove a written display of a non-denominational prayer to be a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion? Keep explaining how this protects ANYONE but the sensitive, misguided atheist that had to view this abominable and oppressive prayer during school assemblies. Really, continue, I'm interested in your vagina's stance on this. |
| __________________________________ [Jan 27,2012 9:28pm - Samefag ""] DestroyYouAlot said: See, "this entire thread". I see it. I've been seeing it. Some vagina telling me that I've been saved and protected by this sniveling twat complaining about a big fat non-issue while thumbing her nose disrespectfully at all who complain. And trying to twist the word and intent of the constitution to do so. |
| _______________________________ [Jan 27,2012 9:48pm - yummy ""] Come to think of it I've never seen any non fiction in a church. |
| ___________________________________________ [Jan 27,2012 10:04pm - Captain Obvious ""] Why argue with a guy named "Samefag"? |
| _________________________________________ [Jan 27,2012 10:05pm - DestroyYouAlot ""] argue =/= mock |
| ___________________________________ [Jan 28,2012 6:50am - eddienli ""] "The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'" 330 U.S. 1, 15-16. yep this is a waste of time and resources but shes right according to this judicial decision. yeah probably goes too far in scope, but whatever. |
| ___________________________________ [Jan 28,2012 6:59am - eddienli ""] I take that back, kinda "Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church" - didn't happen "Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions or prefer one religion over another" - didn't happen "Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion." - didn't happen. i could see a very loose argument that this might influence a person to go to church? but i'm curtain that not the point of this sentence. "No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion." - did the school pay anything for it? seems to be a gift from a seventh grader 50 years ago. more information is needed. " Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa." - didn't happen |
| ___________________________________ [Jan 28,2012 7:01am - eddienli ""] [img] lol my bad |
| __________________________________ [Jan 28,2012 9:04am - posbleak ""] So they don't have a town museum, why not divert their Christian attentions away from harassing and threatening a teenage girl and take five minutes to move the banner to their church instead? |
| _________________________________________ [Jan 28,2012 10:33am - DestroyYouAlot ""] Then they wouldn't be able to make sure all the poor atheists and gays saw it. |
| _______________________________ [Jan 28,2012 6:05pm - iteY ""] despite the obvious inflammatory statements, i think Samefag brought a lot to this argument. he/she/it reminds me of why i fight the battles i fight, and support the battles i choose to support. whether i'm a dumbass, faggot, twat, cunt, or stinkypants, he/she/it has yet to prove one single point that makes this girl's fight not valid. in fact, he/she/it has done nothing but prove that this is a fight worth fighting. |
| __________________________________ [Jan 28,2012 6:15pm - gafemaS ""] Howard Johnson is right! |
| __________________________________ [Jan 28,2012 9:59pm - Samefag ""] Teacher is wearing a crucifix - she's an employee of the state BURN HER!!!!! Sonnet refers to shakespear! PRAYER IN SCHOOL! MUST CENSOR ENGLISH CLASSES! This is such a bad precedent. Go get em with your atheist vagina, girl. The world needs saving. Protect our right from offense by whitewashing everyone. Freedom through restrictions, yay oh yay oh yay. Over three words on a wall, taken completely out of context. PRAYER IN SCHOOL, FORCED WORSHIP, OH BOY OH BOY WE'RE SCREWED There's the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law. Only a few retards here don't actually understand what actually happened here. |
| ___________________________________ [Jan 28,2012 10:00pm - Samefag ""] "sonnet refers to shakespeare" should say "sonnet refers to GOD" |
| ___________________________________ [Jan 28,2012 10:04pm - Samefag ""] posbleak said:So they don't have a town museum, why not divert their Christian attentions away from harassing and threatening a teenage girl and take five minutes to move the banner to their church instead? It's a non-denominational "prayer". The town is full of churches. Which does it belong to? Exactly which god-awful faith was this oppressive prayer pushing on these students? Who gets it? The dirty jews? The muslims? How about them douche Mormons, or the Baptists? How about the local Unitard church? They accept anybody, right? |
| ________________________________ [Jan 28,2012 11:14pm - Aril ""] Captain%20Obvious said:Why argue with a guy named "Samefag"? So rare that I completely agree with captain obvious. |
| ___________________________________ [Jan 29,2012 11:14am - posbleak ""] Samefag said:Exactly which god-awful faith was this oppressive prayer pushing on these students? They should ask their little gods to give them a sign The banner can be stored in a dumpster somewhere while they wait for their answer |
| ___________________________________ [Jan 29,2012 11:24am - Samefag ""] posbleak said: Samefag said:Exactly which god-awful faith was this oppressive prayer pushing on these students? They should ask their little gods to give them a sign The banner can be stored in a dumpster somewhere while they wait for their answer Oh look, another clever vagina that doesn't understand the issue, or the implications. Good for you, sweetheart. Again, let's discuss what difference there is between this "prayer" and a teacher wearing a crucifix, or a poem or sonnet in class or the library referencing god or worship? You vaginas keep skipping right over that point, like you are avoiding it or something. Dangerous precedent indeed. |
| _______________________________ [Jan 29,2012 11:35am - ark ""] the difference is personal freedom of expression and literary analysis, versus a school-wide mission statement. |
| ___________________________________ [Jan 29,2012 11:53am - Samefag ""] ark said:the difference is personal freedom of expression and literary analysis, versus a school-wide mission statement. Was it a mission statement, or a prayer. Pick one. |
| _________________________________________ [Jan 29,2012 10:58pm - DestroyYouAlot ""] You're bad at thought thinking. |
| ________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 12:13am - yummy ""] Josh_Martin said:It said "school prayer" right at the top in big letters. Ovens. no jew zombies in my schools It's difficult for the community to pretend it's not a prayer because of this. The heading doesn't read Mission Statement. |
| ________________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 3:23am - josh_hates_you ""] Finally read this article. Even though the prayer in question is very vague it's still to a heavenly father regardless of which one. Similar to the prayers associated with the 12 step program. I would side with the federal judge on this one. Freedom of religion should also mean freedom from religion. It has it's time and place for people to worship freely without anyone interfering. Public school is not one of them. Keeping these seperate protects both the whiny butthurt atheist and the whiny butthurt people of many various religions from getting more butthurt. |
| ______________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 3:37am - frankovhell ""] I love how samefag thinks he is smarter than all the supreme court judges. Also i bet if this wasn't a GIRL he wouldnt be so amazingly fired up over this, all 2 inches of him. Its apparent your deep seeded issue seems to be the fact that you hate girls because you are probably a fucking loser and can't get layed. End of discussion. I'm going to stick around and wait to be called a "vagina" now. Personally I am militantly against all promotion of religion in a school setting. Go to a catholic school if you don't like it. Religion should be taught as fairy tales and myths in history class. No reference to it should be displayed in school unless it is to be mocked. |
| ________________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 3:59am - josh_hates_you ""] Samefag said: let's discuss what difference there is between this "prayer" and a teacher wearing a crucifix, or a poem or sonnet in class or the library referencing god or worship? You vaginas keep skipping right over that point, like you are avoiding it or something. The difference being the school itself should be neutral on the subject of religion and not have an official school wide prayer regardless of which god it falls under, while an individual such as a teacher or student should be allowed to wear a necklace of their desired faith to express themselves individually. The slippery slope comes when someone gets offended by the necklace and tries to play the dress code card and have an individual remove such offending material. I used to get asked all the time in high school to turn my offensive metal band shirts inside out. Not sure why it wouldnt apply to a Jesus shirt if one were to find it offensive. |
| ______________________________ [Jan 30,2012 9:10am - ark ""] frankovhell said: Personally I am militantly against all promotion of religion in a school setting. Go to a catholic school if you don't like it. Religion should be taught as fairy tales and myths in history class. No reference to it should be displayed in school unless it is to be mocked. aye. keep it in the church, they don't allow public knowledge just the same. |
| __________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:08pm - Samefag ""] josh_hates_you said: The slippery slope comes when someone gets offended by the necklace and tries to play the dress code card and have an individual remove such offending material. I used to get asked all the time in high school to turn my offensive metal band shirts inside out. Not sure why it wouldnt apply to a Jesus shirt if one were to find it offensive. Yes, this is exactly the kind of thing this whole story reminds me of. To keep the risk of offense down, it becomes easier to start removing things or not putting them up in the first place. So something inoffensive to most gets removed pre-emptively to keep any squeaky wheels quiet. I much prefer a stance of "this exists, and I disagree with it" over "I disagree with this, it should not be allowed to exist". Again, if it were being forced on them - making them recite it or such, I would 100% agree it was offensive and should be removed. I just disagree with making such a stand over something nostalgic, well intentioned, and pretty inoffensive. |
| __________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:09pm - Samefag ""] DestroyYouAlot said:You're bad at thought thinking. I thought I thaw a Puddy Tat. |
| __________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:15pm - Samefag ""] frankovhell said:I love how samefag thinks he is smarter than all the supreme court judges. Also i bet if this wasn't a GIRL he wouldnt be so amazingly fired up over this, all 2 inches of him. Its apparent your deep seeded issue seems to be the fact that you hate girls because you are probably a fucking loser and can't get layed. End of discussion. I'm going to stick around and wait to be called a "vagina" now. Personally I am militantly against all promotion of religion in a school setting. Go to a catholic school if you don't like it. Religion should be taught as fairy tales and myths in history class. No reference to it should be displayed in school unless it is to be mocked. First, I don't think I'm any more (or less) smart than the supreme court. It doesn't have anything to do with smart. I disagree with the decision, but understand the technical aspect of the ruling quite well, Frank. As I said earlier, there's the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law. I argue this does NOT follow the spirit of the law at all. Secondly, I have no problems with women. I have problems with the women that post here. 99% attention seeking whores or idiots looking to belong. I'm a troll, retard. We're obligated to troll women here. It's not a deep seated issue, it's a tradition. I was gonna say "goddamned tradition", but I wouldn't want to get taken to the supreme court. And as for your own stance, I think you're just as extreme as the faiths you hate. I'm also an atheist, as I said, but your desire to eradicate all faith or evidence of faith because you don't like it is EXACTLY the kind of bullshit that our constitution and laws were intended to protect us from. Instead of letting people see it all and make a conscious choice, you'd rather eradicate it all and leave them with the same nothing you live your life on. That's pretty hateful, and not the spirit of the country I live in. You're not a vagina, by the way. You just think like one. |
| ______________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:26pm - ark ""] yeah, great, i hate fascists too and i'm far from a militant atheist. i don't seek to eradicate faith. the only argument here is if a school administration hangs a faith-based statement on school grounds. the only thing that matters is the interpretation of the letter of the law. the entity of a public school DOES NOT have the right to free expression. |
| ______________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:33pm - frankovhell ""] MERICA, WOOO HOOO. also women post here besides pam? |
| ______________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:34pm - Yeti ""] it all boils down to one fact. religion, references to religion, prayer, nostalgic vaguely religious sayings, all have no place within a public school. i took an English course in high school and part of it was "the Bible Through Literature", and in my uneducated 18 year old ways, i fought against it based on this. the teacher made a good point to me about it, they weren't promoting it, they weren't displaying it for all to see, it was a class studying the impact of the Bible through historical and literary analysis. i had to elect the course, and the course outline was available at enrollment. it was a public school, but it wasn't on display, and ultimately the course further proved to me why i am against religion, but it was fascinating to study it from an objective perspective. that is vastly different than a posting in a traffic artery essentially blessing the school and all within it. again, it doesn't specify a religion, but it specifies a deity. and let's not dance around the fact that "heavenly father" is a direct reference to Abrahamic religion, and i don't mean Islam. but even then, subjective perception isn't a basis for concrete litigation. this is larger than that, "that" being the blessing of a school under religion, no matter how vague it is. again, as lame as anonymous trolling is, Samefag brought a good counter argument, and lent a lot to this discussion. it could have been a bit more intelligent by avoiding the name-calling, but still, a good argument is a good argument. |
| ______________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:39pm - frankovhell ""] I don't even call myself an achiest. I believe in a lot of weird shit that isnt scientificly proven, which i think makes me an athiest. I just think that the hippy mentality of "oh lets everyone get along only stifles human evolution and growth. Dogmatic abrahamic religions should be wiped out for the good of the human race and I'm sick of all you supposed bad ass metal people thinking its not so bad maaan. Just let everyone do what they want. ,its cool. Fuck that. I'm not saying beat peoples doors in who go to church either. I know its basicly impossible to get rid of religon the way i WISH i could. Its just a pipe dream. But supporting it is not going in the right direction. |
| ________________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:41pm - DestroyYouAlot ""] I'm a militant alchemist. |
| ________________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:41pm - DestroyYouAlot ""] [img] |
| ________________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:43pm - DestroyYouAlot ""] Yeti said:it all boils down to one fact. religion, references to religion, prayer, nostalgic vaguely religious sayings, all have no place within a public school. i took an English course in high school and part of it was "the Bible Through Literature", and in my uneducated 18 year old ways, i fought against it based on this. the teacher made a good point to me about it, they weren't promoting it, they weren't displaying it for all to see, it was a class studying the impact of the Bible through historical and literary analysis. i had to elect the course, and the course outline was available at enrollment. it was a public school, but it wasn't on display, and ultimately the course further proved to me why i am against religion, but it was fascinating to study it from an objective perspective. that is vastly different than a posting in a traffic artery essentially blessing the school and all within it. again, it doesn't specify a religion, but it specifies a deity. and let's not dance around the fact that "heavenly father" is a direct reference to Abrahamic religion, and i don't mean Islam. but even then, subjective perception isn't a basis for concrete litigation. this is larger than that, "that" being the blessing of a school under religion, no matter how vague it is. again, as lame as anonymous trolling is, Samefag brought a good counter argument, and lent a lot to this discussion. it could have been a bit more intelligent by avoiding the name-calling, but still, a good argument is a good argument. If anything, mandatory comparitive religion at junior and senior level in HS. Rip that Band-aid off quick, before all the poor christfags have to go to college and get their tiny minds blown. |
| ________________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:43pm - DestroyYouAlot ""] Unit 1: Zoroastrianism, Horus, and You |
| ______________________________ [Jan 30,2012 1:55pm - ark ""] teaching comparitive religion at a young age is the best way. other people's faith is not my concern. i don't care about the good of the human race. of course dogma is poison, what a waste of energy to forcibly change minds. should dogma be wiped out, yes, will it, no. you can only eradicate faith by promoting education and knowledge. frank, "supposed bad ass metal people" dude please, most people's ideas are trash no matter what you call them. basically impossible to get rid of religion the way you wish it could, yeah, it's already been tried many, many times. |
| __________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 2:00pm - Samefag ""] Yeti said: again, as lame as anonymous trolling is, Samefag brought a good counter argument, and lent a lot to this discussion. it could have been a bit more intelligent by avoiding the name-calling, but still, a good argument is a good argument. You fucking bastard, right when I was about to call you a vagina. Wanna fuck? |
| __________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 2:05pm - Samefag ""] ark said:teaching comparitive religion at a young age is the best way. Agreed. Firstly, give kids the tradition/faith they get from family. But since so many of us ARE atheists or such these days, they should secondly get a good overview of a little of everything else. Kinda like when I was a kid. We were raised cathlick, but there would be the t.v. episode where the cathlick main character would make friends with some filthy jew kid, so you'd get an entertaining little education of how Hanukkah and penny-pinching works. Whether this should come from the school is debatable. I don't trust the public school system to something that can be such an important part of a kids life potentially. Like, if you want your kid to learn music, do you let them take the music class in public school, or do you sign them up for private instrument lessons? I think it's almost unfair to a kid to say "I don't believe, so I will raise you not to believe". They have to learn it somewhere, to be fair. |
| ___________________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 2:11pm - FuckIsMySignature ""] samefag is arilfag arilfag is samefag |
| __________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 2:12pm - Samefag ""] ark said: should dogma be wiped out, yes, will it, no. It's already being wiped out. People are too busy crying to notice. Had a VERY enlightening conversation with a limo driver and funereal director at a funereal recently. We might not see it, but boy do they! Most people these days eschew the dogmatic traditions of old now. They said that their business is heavily effected by it (moreso the driver), and that even the wedding industry has seen the same effect. Far more people now than ever skip the churches and marry/bury their dead without them. |
| _______________________________ [Jan 30,2012 2:12pm - Aril ""] FuckIsMySignature said:samefag is arilfag arilfag is samefag No I'm not. |
| ___________________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 2:14pm - FuckIsMySignature ""] :spineyes: |
| ________________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 2:19pm - DestroyYouAlot ""] [img] |
| ____________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 2:24pm - Alx_Casket ""] My prediction of churches becoming metal clubs will be realized before you know it. |
| _____________________________________ [Jan 30,2012 2:26pm - Josh_Martin ""] already happened, years ago. Limelight |