Obama-care communist plot upheld by the supreme court[views:6250][posts:68]_______________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:02am - the_reverend ""] http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/28/how-w...-rule-on-health-care-law/?hpt=hp_t1 next stop FEMA death camps and the amero. |
| _________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:07am - Burnsy ""] I've never really understood the logic of this bill. Hell, I barely know what's in it besides the individual mandate. I'm interested to hear how the mandate meets constitutional muster. |
| _______________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:12am - the_reverend ""] I never understood why all the poor people just don't eat cake. |
| _________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:13am - Burnsy ""] the_reverend said:I never understood why all the poor people just don't eat cats. |
| _________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:16am - KEVORD ""] the_reverend said:I never understood why all the poor people just don't go to trade school. It took me a week to find a decent plumber.. |
| ____________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:22am - arktouros ""] from reddit, best explanation i've seen. i'll take the good with the bad. http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/...s_obamacare_and_what_did_it/c530lfx What people call "Obamacare" is actually the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. However, people were calling it "Obamacare" before everyone even hammered out what it would be. It's a term mostly used by people who don't like the PPACA, and it's become popularized in part because PPACA is a really long and awkward name, even when you turn it into an acronym like that. Anyway, the PPACA made a bunch of new rules regarding health care, with the purpose of making health care more affordable for everyone. Opponents of the PPACA, on the other hand, feel that the rules it makes take away too many freedoms and force people (both individuals and businesses) to do things they shouldn't have to. So what does it do? Well, here is everything, in the order of when it goes into effect (because some of it happens later than other parts of it): Already in effect: It allows the Food and Drug Administration to approve more generic drugs (making for more competition in the market to drive down prices) It increases the rebates on drugs people get through Medicare (so drugs cost less) It establishes a non-profit group, that the government doesn't directly control, PCORI, to study different kinds of treatments to see what works better and is the best use of money. ( Citation: Page 665, sec. 1181 ) It makes chain restaurants like McDonalds display how many calories are in all of their foods, so people can have an easier time making choices to eat healthy. ( Citation: Page 499, sec. 4205 ) It makes a "high-risk pool" for people with pre-existing conditions. Basically, this is a way to slowly ease into getting rid of "pre-existing conditions" altogether. For now, people who already have health issues that would be considered "pre-existing conditions" can still get insurance, but at different rates than people without them. It renews some old policies, and calls for the appointment of various positions. It creates a new 10% tax on indoor tanning booths. ( Citation: Page 923, sec. 5000B ) It says that health insurance companies can no longer tell customers that they won't get any more coverage because they have hit a "lifetime limit". Basically, if someone has paid for health insurance, that company can't tell that person that he's used that insurance too much throughout his life so they won't cover him any more. They can't do this for lifetime spending, and they're limited in how much they can do this for yearly spending. ( Citation: Page 14, sec. 2711 ) Kids can continue to be covered by their parents' health insurance until they're 26. No more "pre-existing conditions" for kids under the age of 19. Insurers have less ability to change the amount customers have to pay for their plans. People in a "Medicare Gap" get a rebate to make up for the extra money they would otherwise have to spend. Insurers can't just drop customers once they get sick. ( Citation: Page 14, sec. 2712 ) Insurers have to tell customers what they're spending money on. (Instead of just "administrative fee", they have to be more specific). Insurers need to have an appeals process for when they turn down a claim, so customers have some manner of recourse other than a lawsuit when they're turned down. New ways to stop fraud are created. Medicare extends to smaller hospitals. Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored more thoroughly. Reduces the costs for some companies that handle benefits for the elderly. A new website is made to give people insurance and health information. (I think this is it: http://www.healthcare.gov/ ). A credit program is made that will make it easier for business to invest in new ways to treat illness. A limit is placed on just how much of a percentage of the money an insurer makes can be profit, to make sure they're not price-gouging customers. A limit is placed on what type of insurance accounts can be used to pay for over-the-counter drugs without a prescription. Basically, your insurer isn't paying for the Aspirin you bought for that hangover. Employers need to list the benefits they provided to employees on their tax forms. 8/1/2012 Any health plans sold after this date must provide preventative care (mammograms, colonoscopies, etc.) without requiring any sort of co-pay or charge. 1/1/2013 If you make over $200,000 a year, your taxes go up a tiny bit (0.9%). Edit: To address those who take issue with the word "tiny", a change of 0.9% is relatively tiny. Any look at how taxes have fluctuated over the years will reveal that a change of less than one percent is miniscule, especially when we're talking about people in the top 5% of earners. 1/1/2014 This is when a lot of the really big changes happen. No more "pre-existing conditions". At all. People will be charged the same regardless of their medical history. If you can afford insurance but do not get it, you will be charged a fee. This is the "mandate" that people are talking about. Basically, it's a trade-off for the "pre-existing conditions" bit, saying that since insurers now have to cover you regardless of what you have, you can't just wait to buy insurance until you get sick. Otherwise no one would buy insurance until they needed it. You can opt not to get insurance, but you'll have to pay the fee instead, unless of course you're not buying insurance because you just can't afford it. Insurers now can't do annual spending caps. Their customers can get as much health care in a given year as they need. ( Citation: Page 14, sec. 2711 ) Make it so more poor people can get Medicaid by making the low-income cut-off higher. Small businesses get some tax credits for two years. Businesses with over 50 employees must offer health insurance to full-time employees, or pay a penalty. Limits how high of an annual deductible insurers can charge customers. Cut some Medicare spending Place a $2500 limit on tax-free spending on FSAs (accounts for medical spending). Basically, people using these accounts now have to pay taxes on any money over $2500 they put into them. Establish health insurance exchanges and rebates for the lower and middle-class, basically making it so they have an easier time getting affordable medical coverage. Congress and Congressional staff will only be offered the same insurance offered to people in the insurance exchanges, rather than Federal Insurance. Basically, we won't be footing their health care bills any more than any other American citizen. A new tax on pharmaceutical companies. A new tax on the purchase of medical devices. A new tax on insurance companies based on their market share. Basically, the more of the market they control, the more they'll get taxed. The amount you can deduct from your taxes for medical expenses increases. 1/1/2015 Doctors' pay will be determined by the quality of their care, not how many people they treat. Edit: a_real_MD addresses questions regarding this one in far more detail and with far more expertise than I can offer in this post. If you're looking for a more in-depth explanation of this one (as many of you are), I highly recommend you give his post a read. 1/1/2017 If any state can come up with their own plan, one which gives citizens the same level of care at the same price as the PPACA, they can ask the Secretary of Health and Human Resources for permission to do their plan instead of the PPACA. So if they can get the same results without, say, the mandate, they can be allowed to do so. Vermont, for example, has expressed a desire to just go straight to single-payer (in simple terms, everyone is covered, and medical expenses are paid by taxpayers). 2018 All health care plans must now cover preventative care (not just the new ones). A new tax on "Cadillac" health care plans (more expensive plans for rich people who want fancier coverage). 2020 The elimination of the "Medicare gap" . Aaaaand that's it right there. The biggest thing opponents of the bill have against it is the mandate. They claim that it forces people to buy insurance, and forcing people to buy something is unconstitutional. Personally, I take the opposite view, as it's not telling people to buy a specific thing, just to have a specific type of thing, just like a part of the money we pay in taxes pays for the police and firemen who protect us, this would have us paying to ensure doctors can treat us for illness and injury. Plus, as previously mentioned, it's necessary if you're doing away with "pre-existing conditions" because otherwise no one would get insurance until they needed to use it, which defeats the purpose of insurance. Whew! Hope that answers the question! Edits: Fixing typos. Edit 2: Wow... people have a lot of questions. I'm afraid I can't get to them now (got to go to work), but I'll try to later. Edit 3: Okay, I'm at work, so I can't go really in-depth for some of the more complex questions just now, but I'll try and address the simpler ones. Also, a few I'm seeing repeatedly: For those looking for a source... well, here is the text of the bill, all 974 pages of it (as it sits currently after being amended multiple times). I can't point out page numbers just now, but they're there if you want them. The website that was to be established, I think, is http://www.healthcare.gov/. A lot of people are concerned about the 1/1/2015 bit that says that doctors' pay will be tied to quality, not quantity. Because so many people want to know more about this, I've sought out what I believe to be the pertinent sections (From Page 307, section 3007). It looks like this part alters a part of another bill, the Social Security Act, passed a long while ago. That bill already regulates how doctors' pay is determined. The PPACA just changes the criteria. Judging by how professionals are writing about it, it looks like this is just referring to Medicaid and Medicare. Basically, this is changing how much the government pays to doctors and medical groups, in situations where they are already responsible for pay. Edit 4: Numerous people are pointing out I said "Medicare" when I meant "Medicaid". Whoops. Fixed (I think). Edit 5: Apparently I messed up the acronym (initialism?). Fixed. Edit 6: Fixed a few more places where I mixed up terms (it was late, I was tired). Also, for everyone asking if they can post this elsewhere, feel free to. Edit 7: Okay, I need to get to work. Thanks to everyone for the kind comments, and I hope I've addressed the questions most of you have (that I can actually answer). I just want to be sure to say, I'm just a guy. I'm no expert, and everything I posted here I attribute mostly to Wikipedia or the actual bill itself, with an occasional Google search to clarify stuff. I am absolutely not a difinitive source or expert. I was just trying to simplify things as best I can without dumbing them down. I'm glad that many of you found this helpful. Edit 8: Wow, this has spread all over the internet... and I'm kinda' embarrassed because what spread included all of my 2AM typos and mistakes. Well, it's too late to undo my mistakes now that the floodgates have opened. I only hope that people aren't too harsh on me for the stuff I've tried to go back and correct. Edit 9: Added a few citations (easy-to-find stuff). But I gotta' run, so the rest will have to wait. |
| ____________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:25am - arktourOs ""] the most ironic part is that 15 years ago, this was a republican health plan, almost to the letter. |
| _____________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:30am - Alx_Casket ""] arktourOs said:the most ironic part is that 15 years ago, this was a republican health plan, almost to the letter. Proof? |
| ____________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:41am - arktouros ""] http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/obamas-moderate-health-care-plan began in the 70's with nixon: http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/20...09/september/03/nixon-proposal.aspx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_he...rm_in_the_United_States#1960s-1980s |
| ____________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:43am - arktouros ""] basically "obamacare" takes letters from romney's mass heathcare, which can be traced back further than i thought. |
| ___________________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:54am - largefreakatzero ""] "Kids can continue to be covered by their parents' health insurance until they're 26." And the basement black metal scene did rejoice (grimly). |
| _________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 11:59am - Burnsy ""] [img] |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 2:35pm - Boozegood ""] The biggest thing opponents of the bill have against it is the mandate. They claim that it forces people to buy insurance, and forcing people to buy something is unconstitutional. Personally, I take the opposite view, as it's not telling people to buy a specific thing, just to have a specific type of thing, just like a part of the money we pay in taxes pays for the police and firemen who protect us, this would have us paying to ensure doctors can treat us for illness and injury. Wow. What the fuck is happening to America. This guy has to be from Massachusetts, California, or somewhere similar. |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 2:42pm - arktouros ""] i'm against the mandate because it forces me to buy from a for-profit private company. mass already does this so we are exempt. he takes that view for an incredibly naive reason, methinks. |
| _______________________________ [Jun 28,2012 2:54pm - yummy ""] I think I can understand everyone's sentiment here. But, if everyone pays into this and it causes company's like blue cross to bring down their rates because they would no longer be competetive, how is this the worst thing ever? It's not a new idea having healthcare for everybody and holy shit! Now doctors have to treat you regardless of your financial situation without having to worry about a $6000 bill for a broken arm. Like I said tho, I get it. I see why this would make people feel pessimistic about the country's direction but, HELLO! Have you heard of Wall Street? Pension liablility? Our debt? Our wars? I don't claim to know everything but there's plenty of things out of our control. I would like government to stay out of my business too but open your fucking eyes. It's not like they give you a choice whether to pay taxes. They're out when you get your paycheck (if your on the books that is). |
| __________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 2:57pm - posbleak ""] Allowing states to experiment with single-payer healthcare is one of the best parts of this law, IMO If Vermont wants to be the nation's guinea pig and show everyone how well/terribly it works then perhaps that can influence future decisions about single-payer |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 2:59pm - arktouros ""] yeah, i think the overall package needs to happen. i completely agree. i would have liked to see single-payer. wouldn't it be nice if this was actually a socialist bill. the main problem with american health insurance is prohibitive costs and bureaucracy, and unregulated insurance mechanisms. i think it goes a long way to fix those problems. |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 3:00pm - arktouros ""] also, i love how tanning booths will be taxed. get a tan, support the war effort. |
| _______________________________ [Jun 28,2012 3:07pm - yummy ""] arktouros said:yeah, i think the overall package needs to happen. i completely agree. i would have liked to see single-payer. wouldn't it be nice if this was actually a socialist bill. the main problem with american health insurance is prohibitive costs and bureaucracy, and unregulated insurance mechanisms. i think it goes a long way to fix those problems. Agreed. And, yes obviously tanning booths should be taxed. Extra fee for an otherwise unnecessary service. Then again...we'll see how I feel when they tax the services I prefer. I think besides food or music the only service I pay for is getting a new setup for my guitar. And because I appreciate the service I would have no problem paying a little extra. |
| ______________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 3:08pm - quintessence ""] So what is the minimum amount of money you need to earn in order to be "required" to fucking get health care evne though Im really fucking health because I eat right and exercise.... Fuck obama care. |
| _________________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 3:12pm - Headbanging_Man ""] yummy said:I think I can understand everyone's sentiment here. But, if everyone pays into this and it causes company's like blue cross to bring down their rates because they would no longer be competetive, how is this the worst thing ever? The problem is it's not designed to effectively pool and spread the risk, which is what a real single-payer system would do. It's designed to guarantee the current for-profit health insurance regime remains profitable; there are attempts to control prices and to force insurance companies to stay consistent with their coverage, but they are not strong elements of the law to begin with and are those parts most voraciously lobbied against by the insurance companies... I'd imagine big Pharma is lobbying heavily too, as the current insurance system facilitates their massive price gouging practice. Though I believe the political back and forth over the shaping of the bill was generally staged kabuki to provide public cover for a bill conceived and written entirely by lobbyists, the final stage for Democrats was to sell the bill to their more progressive constituents as a first step. "Pass this now and we'll fix it later". Ha! As it stands, the mandate is the strongest part of the bill, so now we are forced to buy private insurance yet, with a few exceptions, no major restraints are placed on the insurers. The SCOTUS ruling is particularly interesting since it kept the mandate alive by ruling it a "tax". How fortunate for the health insurance cartel! This is the first time a "tax" has been instituted which doesn't even go through the hands of the government before funneling into the pockets of private corporations. I am sure the defense contracting industry is positively green with envy. |
| _______________________________ [Jun 28,2012 3:16pm - yummy ""] quintessence said:So what is the minimum amount of money you need to earn in order to be "required" to fucking get health care evne though Im really fucking health because I eat right and exercise.... Fuck obama care. Honestly, this is exactly how I feel. |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 3:16pm - arktouros ""] Headbanging_Man said: yummy said:I think I can understand everyone's sentiment here. But, if everyone pays into this and it causes company's like blue cross to bring down their rates because they would no longer be competetive, how is this the worst thing ever? The problem is it's not designed to effectively pool and spread the risk, which is what a real single-payer system would do. It's designed to guarantee the current for-profit health insurance regime remains profitable; there are attempts to control prices and to force insurance companies to stay consistent with their coverage, but they are not strong elements of the law to begin with and are those parts most voraciously lobbied against by the insurance companies... I'd imagine big Pharma is lobbying heavily too, as the current insurance system facilitates their massive price gouging practice. Though I believe the political back and forth over the shaping of the bill was generally staged kabuki to provide public cover for a bill conceived and written entirely by lobbyists, the final stage for Democrats was to sell the bill to their more progressive constituents as a first step. "Pass this now and we'll fix it later". Ha! As it stands, the mandate is the strongest part of the bill, so now we are forced to buy private insurance yet, with a few exceptions, no major restraints are placed on the insurers. The SCOTUS ruling is particularly interesting since it kept the mandate alive by ruling it a "tax". How fortunate for the health insurance cartel! This is the first time a "tax" has been instituted which doesn't even go through the hands of the government before funneling into the pockets of private corporations. I am sure the defense contracting industry is positively green with envy. ^^ and that sums up my problems with it better than i can. |
| ______________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 3:29pm - the_reverend ""] guys, grow a sack and have that lump on your sack checked! |
| _______________________________ [Jun 28,2012 3:49pm - yummy ""] I can't afford it. |
| ________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 4:19pm - xmikex ""] arktouros said:also, i love how tanning booths will be taxed. get a tan, support the war effort. [img] too easy? |
| _______________________________ [Jun 28,2012 4:40pm - yummy ""] haha |
| ________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 4:58pm - KEVORD ""] the_reverend said:guys, grow a sack and have that lump on your sack checked!Make your appointment now cause under Obamacare the doctor will be able to see you in 2016. |
| ______________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 5:15pm - the_reverend ""] KEVORD said: the_reverend said:guys, grow a sack and have that lump on your sack checked!Make your appointment now cause under Obamacare the doctor will be able to see you in 2016. please tell michelle to post from her own account. |
| ________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 5:27pm - KEVORD ""] the_reverend said: KEVORD said: the_reverend said:guys, grow a sack and have that lump on your sack checked!Make your appointment now cause under Obamacare the doctor will be able to see you in 2016. please tell michelle to post from her own account. Ha Ha. Michelle and I don't agree on everything politically but we do agree that socialized medicine is a terrible idea. |
| _______________________________ [Jun 28,2012 5:47pm - yummy ""] If you followed Michelle's ideology you wouldn't have to depend on government healthcare. Assuming you know the first lady. Majority of this "socialized medicine" is used to treat symptoms from what the FDA calls "food". |
| ______________________________ [Jun 28,2012 6:00pm - ark ""] it's not socialized medicine. see Canada, Europe, Japan, etc for that. |
| ________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 6:11pm - RELAX ""] quintessence said:So what is the minimum amount of money you need to earn in order to be "required" to fucking get health care evne though Im really fucking health because I eat right and exercise.... Fuck obama care. diseases caught at gay bath houses will no longer be considered pre existing conditions, you should embrace this bill! |
| ________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 6:17pm - KEVORD ""] ark said:it's not socialized medicine. see Canada, Europe, Japan, etc for that. sorry it's a “Tax". Well I'm against those too. |
| _________________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 6:49pm - Headbanging_Man ""] Socialized medicine has problems, but socialized health insurance is the only way to spread the risk over the entire tax base. |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 7:02pm - BOOZEGOOD ""] Headbanging_Man said:Socialized medicine has problems, but socialized health insurance is the only way to spread the risk over the entire tax base. Is this supposed to be a sarcastic post or not? |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 7:03pm - BOOZEGOOD ""] I'm just going to leave this here: [img] |
| ____________________________________________________________ [Jun 28,2012 10:15pm - Big bag of assorted nigger parts ""] [img] |
| ________________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 8:53am - DestroyYouAlot ""] yummy said:what the FDA calls "food". Best part of this thread. |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 9:35am - arktouros ""] KEVORD said: ark said:it's not socialized medicine. see Canada, Europe, Japan, etc for that. sorry it's a “Tax". Well I'm against those too. i'm against dunkin donuts, and we're both in the wrong place. |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 10:19am - Really? ""] yummy said: quintessence said:So what is the minimum amount of money you need to earn in order to be "required" to fucking get health care evne though Im really fucking health because I eat right and exercise.... Fuck obama care. Honestly, this is exactly how I feel. Sure, until you get into a car accident and require major surgery to fix your broken ass. That shouldn't cost too much without health insurance right? |
| _____________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 10:25am - Alx_Casket ""] I'm just going to leave this here: [img] |
| _________________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 10:39am - DestroyYouAlot ""] Alx_Casket said:I'm just going to leave this here: [img] thread won HAIL MYATT |
| ________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 11:22am - yummy ""] Really? said: yummy said: quintessence said:So what is the minimum amount of money you need to earn in order to be "required" to fucking get health care evne though Im really fucking health because I eat right and exercise.... Fuck obama care. Honestly, this is exactly how I feel. Sure, until you get into a car accident and require major surgery to fix your broken ass. That shouldn't cost too much without health insurance right? Anonymous posters require no response. But, I'll budge. I've never been in an accident before. I've had some close calls sure but I do have car insurance so as long as I continue to stay safe and alert the other guy will be picking up the tab. I'm not saying this is a failproof plan but it's worked up to this point, considering it's never happened. |
| _________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 11:25am - Burnsy ""] BUT OBAMA LOVES ILLEGALS AND WILL GIVE THEM LICENSES AND FREE CARS. THEY WILL REAR END YOU GOING 98. YOU WILL SUSTAIN SEVERE INJURIES FOR WHICH YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY. THE TERRORISTS WIN!!! |
| ________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 11:33am - yummy ""] OH SHIT! WE'RE ALL FUCKED THEN!!! |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 11:35am - Really? ""] yummy said: Really? said: yummy said: quintessence said:So what is the minimum amount of money you need to earn in order to be "required" to fucking get health care evne though Im really fucking health because I eat right and exercise.... Fuck obama care. Honestly, this is exactly how I feel. Sure, until you get into a car accident and require major surgery to fix your broken ass. That shouldn't cost too much without health insurance right? Anonymous posters require no response. But, I'll budge. I've never been in an accident before. I've had some close calls sure but I do have car insurance so as long as I continue to stay safe and alert the other guy will be picking up the tab. I'm not saying this is a failproof plan but it's worked up to this point, considering it's never happened. That was just an example. I'm just saying it really doesnt matter how healthy you live your life, shit happens and sooner or later something will cause you to require expert medical attention and the costs can be astronomical if you are uninsured. |
| ________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 12:02pm - yummy ""] Me calling you "anonymous poster" was just an example. I'm sure you're mom didn't spit you out, look at you and yell "Really?" Whereas I'm delicious so...yes to that. I'm responding to what you said not the things you didn't but here's a heads up...the only thing absolute in this life is death. If you can figure out a way around that, enlighten me. When I have cancer do you really think I'm gonna look back and go, "man if I just listened to "Really?" I could get that treatment that'll barely matter. I live fast and I'll die kinda old. |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 12:09pm - Really? ""] Just because I posted anonymously doesnt mean I have nothing valid to contribute the conversation. Lol at focusing on that rather than the issue at hand. Cry about it. |
| ________________________________ [Jun 29,2012 12:26pm - yummy ""] "I'm just saying it really doesnt matter how healthy you live your life" This is the part I focused on. Why is health insurance necessary then? The validity of your contribution to this conversation is as transparent as your name. |