.:.:.:.:RTTP.Mobile:.:.:.:.
[<--back] [Home][Pics][News][Ads][Events][Forum][Band][Search]
full forum | bottom

OK how bout top albums

[views:11648][posts:49]
 _________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 8:31pm - cruelty ""]
my top 10

1.Danzig- 4
2.Profanum-Profanum
3.Solefald-Pills agianst the ageless Ills
4.Arcturus-La Masqurade Infernal
5.Katatonia-Last fair deal gone down
6.King Dimond-Abagail
7.Mortiis-The smell of Rain
8.Gorgoroth-Under the sign of hell
9and10.Guns n Roses- use your Illusion 1 and 2
 _________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 8:45pm - phantos ""]
not in order, and Im sure too forget some...

Metallica - Master of Puppets
Slayer - Reign In Blood
Voivod - Nothingface
Don Caballero - The Singles Breaking Up
Discordance Axis - Reincarnation
King Crimson - Red
Black Sabbath - Volume 4

basics for a desert island... and then about 5000 more behind that... Im old and it shows.
 ____________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 9:30pm - BornSoVile ""]
Cryptopsy - None So Vile
Blood For Blood - Revenge on Society
Ulver - Bergtatt
Dying Fetus - Killing on Adrenaline
Krisiun - Conquerors of Armageddon
Absu - Tara
Judas Iscariot - Dethroned, Conquered, and Forgotten
Graveland - Immortal Pride
Immortal - Battles In the North
The Trouble - Nobody Laughs Anymore
 _______________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 9:35pm - DeOdiumMortis ""]
Emperor - Anthems
Dodheimsgard - Satanic Art

I could live off those two albums for eternity.

Strapping Young Lad - City
Alice in Chains - Dirt
The Berzerker - Dissimulate
Others that arn't coming to mind...
 ____________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 9:43pm - MyDeadDoll ""]
it's so not easy to think of things like this just right off. there's way too many things going thru my head... but I guess I can name what I've been listening to today as being pretty top:

Skinless - from sacrifice to survival
Dying Fetus - Stop at Nothing
Dimmu Borgir - Death Cult Armageddon
Hatebreed - The Rise of Brutality
Meshugga - Nothing
 ___________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 9:50pm - dyingmuse ""]
anathema-alternative 4
the third and the mortal-tears laid in earth
king diamond-them
my dying bride the angel and the dark river
candlemass-epicus doomicus metallicus
anathema-judgement
my dying bride-turn loose the swans
septic flesh-mysitic places of dawn
ulver-kveldsfanger
suffocation-peirced from within
 ___________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 9:54pm - dyingmuse ""]
cruelty said:my top 10

1.Danzig- 4
2.Profanum-Profanum
3.Solefald-Pills agianst the ageless Ills
4.Arcturus-La Masqurade Infernal
5.Katatonia-Last fair deal gone down
6.King Dimond-Abagail
7.Mortiis-The smell of Rain
8.Gorgoroth-Under the sign of hell
9and10.Guns n Roses- use your Illusion 1 and 2



7.Mortiis-The smell of Rain i hope you are kidding that guy is a fucking fag now. i have the fucking video of that ....a parasite god a-huu ohh yeahh baby! what a fucking cock smoke...sorry dude no offence but really...hes gay now. i loved his first 3 albums but it all went down hill from stargate
 ____________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 9:57pm - MyDeadDoll ""]
what is it with all the references to gayness???

I propose a gay-o-meter:
:tightiewhities: gay
:tightiewhities::tightiewhities: very gay
:tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities: extremely gay
:tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities: so gay, it's making me think i'm gay
:tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities:
so gay it's turning the whole thread gay
 _______________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 9:58pm - DeOdiumMortis ""]
MyDeadDoll said:what is it with all the references to gayness???


Asking that is so gay.
 _____________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 10:01pm - MyDeadDoll ""]
DeOdiumMortis said:MyDeadDoll said:what is it with all the references to gayness???


Asking that is so gay.



you're gay. :tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities: on the gay-o-meter
 ____________________________________
[Oct 29,2003 10:02pm - dyingmuse ""]
:tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities::tightiewhities: soooo gay
 _____________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 12:57am - BornSoVile ""]
MyDeadDoll said:

Skinless - from sacrifice to survival
Dying Fetus - Stop at Nothing
Dimmu Borgir - Death Cult Armageddon
Hatebreed - The Rise of Brutality
Meshugga - Nothing



Sweetheart, you can do better than that.
 _____________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 1:03am - RustedAngel ""]
she's a n00b, go to her homepage, it's obvious.
 __________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 1:30am - HiImPaul ""]
Dehumanized- prophecies forseen
Brodequin- instruments of torture
Napalm death- F.E.T.O
Carcass- Reek of putrefaction
Carcass- Symphonies of sickness
Gut- odour of torture
Mortal Decay- a gathering of human artifacts
Mortal Decay-Forensick
retaliation- the execution
Devourment- molesting the decapitated
eternal suffering- drowning in tragedy
repulsion- horrifed
human remains- using sickess as a hero
malignancy- cross species transmutation
general surgery- necrology

These are the discs I constantly find putting in my cd player. Doesnt mean they are the best albums of all time but its what ive been litsening to lately
 ____________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 1:46am - MyDeadDoll ""]
BornSoVile said:MyDeadDoll said:

Skinless - from sacrifice to survival
Dying Fetus - Stop at Nothing
Dimmu Borgir - Death Cult Armageddon
Hatebreed - The Rise of Brutality
Meshugga - Nothing



Sweetheart, you can do better than that.



awww... you called me sweetheart.... :pukeface:
 _________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 1:51am - Terence ""]
1. Slayer- Seasons in the Abyss
2. Morbid Angel- Domination
3. Carcass- Heartwork
4. Immortal- At the Heart of Winter
5. Emperor- Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk
6. Marduk- Panzer Division Marduk
7. Hypocrisy- s/t
8. Dimmu Borgir- Spiritual Black Dimensions
9. Vader- Litany
10. The Berzerker- Dissimulate

These are my top 10 most listened to CD's of all time, in order.
 ____________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 1:58am - MyDeadDoll ""]
RustedAngel said:she's a n00b, go to her homepage, it's obvious.


I've already vertified that fact that I'm a fucking loser... and everyone here is sooo much cooler than me... christ... i'll just go away.... so fuck you and the horse you rode in on... :middlefinger::middlefinger:
 _______________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 8:53am - joe/notcommon ""]
top ten metal albums: (no particular order)

1- Emperor 'the wraith of the tyrant' (their only good album)
2- Motorhead 'ace of spades'
3- Slayer 'decade of aggression' (sure it's live but it's got more songs)
4- SOD 'speak english or die'
5- Iron Maiden 'the number of the beast'
6- Motley Crue 'shout at the devil' (but too fast for love ruled also)
7- Disrupt 'Unrest'
8- Metallica 'Master of Puppets'
9- Kevorkian's Angels 'The Sound of Modern Hate'
10- Disengaged 'The Ocean'

But this isn't an accurate list of my 10 favorites of all styles, but I didn't want to be close minded because obviously listening to anything but metal means you are close minded. To be really open minded you must listen to metal that started after 1994, I guess I still failed.
 __________________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 12:14pm - baneofexistence ""]
1. WARGASM - WHY PLAY AROUND
2. WARGASM - SUICIDE NOTES
3. MALEVOLENT CREATION - 10 COMMANDMENTS
4. SLAYER - HELL AWAITS
5. SLAYER - DECADE OF AGGRESSION
6. IRON MAIDEN - LIVE AFTER DEATH
7. OZZY/RHOADS - TRIBUTE
8. OZZY- BLIZZARD OF OZZ
9. OZZY DIARY OF A MADMAN
10. BITTER - S/T
 _______________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 1:01pm - joe/notcommon ""]
thats a good list Jim
make me a copy of the maiden disc please, thanks
 _________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 3:46pm - cruelty ""]
Sorry dude I like new mortiis I am a huge goth, synth pop and Industrial fan. I like could rank shit like billy Idol, the cure, switchblade symphony, duran duran, and even manson right up there as well but I cant pick any particular albums. I gave up my metal elitism a long ass time ago. The smell of rain has some of the most incredible lyrics most of it is about him reailizing he isnt a Actully a troll. but anyone whos ever grown out of something they wanted to hang onto can identify with it. So yes I was serious and I think shit like Profanatica is gay not new mortiis it just isnt metal.
 ________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 3:50pm - Beakey ""]
01. Beatles - White Album
02. Beatles - Abbey Road
03. Guns 'N Roses - Use Your Illusion (One)
04. Motorhead - Overkill
05. Melvins - Stag
06. Nirvana - In Utero
07. Violent Femmes - Self Titled
08. Pixies - Doolittle
09. Pixies - Surfer Rosa
10. Disengaged - The Ocean
 ________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 3:52pm - Beakey ""]
Joe, I had no idea you liked early Crue.
I am pleased by this.
Bastard is the best song ever.
 ___________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 4:28pm - dreadkill ""]
1. opeth-morningrise
---in no order---
katatonia-tonight's decision
anathema-alternative 4
sentenced-crimson
green carnation-light of day, day of darkness
led zeppelin-in through the out door
mercyful fate-melissa
neurosis-a sun that never sets
pain of salvation-remedy lane
porcupine tree-stupid dream
devin townsend-ocean machine-biomech
death-symbolic
rush-vapor trails
so many others.
 ________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 5:02pm - retzam ""]
dreadkill said:1. opeth-morningrise
---in no order---
katatonia-tonight's decision
anathema-alternative 4
sentenced-crimson
green carnation-light of day, day of darkness
led zeppelin-in through the out door
mercyful fate-melissa
neurosis-a sun that never sets
pain of salvation-remedy lane
porcupine tree-stupid dream
devin townsend-ocean machine-biomech
death-symbolic
rush-vapor trails
so many others.



I love you for two reasons: putting Morningrise at #1 and putting In Through The Out Door in your list. I don't know why people can't recognize the awesome shit on that album, Fool In The Rain, Carouselambra, and In The Evening to name a few. With that said, I will completely contradict that statement by not putting it on my list.

1. Opeth - Morningrise
2. Led Zeppelin - Houses Of The Holy
3. Opeth - My Arms, Your Hearse
4. Opeth - Still Life
5. Led Zeppelin - Physical Graffiti
6. Diabolical Masquerade - Death's Design
7. Dimmu Borgir - Enthrone Darkness Triumphant
8. The Kovenant - Animatronic
9. Iron Maiden - Powerslave
10. Judas Priest - Painkiller
 _______________________________
[Oct 30,2003 6:34pm - Devin ""]
Metallica - Master of Puppets
Iron Maiden - Powerslave
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon
Opeth - Blackwater Park
Pink Floyd - The Wall
Tool - Aenima
Nine-Inch Nails - The Downward Spiral
U2 - The Joshua Tree
In Flames - The Jester Race
AC/DC - Back in Black
Guns n' Roses - Appetite for Destruction
Death - Symbolic
Slayer - Reign in Blood
Shadows Fall - The Art of Balance
Sex Pistols - Never Mind the Bollocks Here's the Sex Pistols
Strapping Young Lad - City
Death By Stereo - Into the Valley of Death
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath
The Doors - The Doors
The Beatles - "The White Album"
Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced?
AFI - The Art of Drowning
Judas Priest - Painkiller
Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan
Thrice - The Artist in the Ambulence
At the Gates - Slaughter of the Soul
Pantera - Vulgar Display of Power
Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here
Bob Marley and the Wailers - Exodus
Motley Crue - Dr. Feelgood
Sepultura - Chaos AD
Deep Purple - Machine Head
Led Zeppelin - "Zoso"
Dream Theater - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Fear Factory - Demanufacture
Iced Earth - The Dark Saga
Nevermore - Dead Heart, in a Dead World
Iron Maiden - Dance of Death
Iron Maiden - The Number of the Beast
Pink Floyd - Animals
Metallica - "The Black Album"
Lamb of God - As the Pallaces Burn
Megadeth - Peace Sells... But Who's Buying?
Testament - The New Order
Meshuggah - Destroy Erase Improve
Nirvana - Nevermind
Opeth - Morningrise
Morbid Angel - Blessed Are the Sick
Ozzy Osbourne - Blizzard of Ozz
Black Sabbath - Heaven & Hell
Black Sabbath - Paranoid
Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime
Queensryche - Empire
Rage Against the Machine - The Battle of LA
Rolling Stones - It's Only Rock n' Roll
The Beatles - Abbey Road
Run-DMC - Raising Hell
Rush - Signals
Sublime - Sublime
System of a Down - Toxicity
Talking Heads - Remain in Light
Talking Heads - Speaking in Tongues
The Doors - LA Woman
Dead Kennedys - Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables
The Misfits - Earth AD/Die Die My Darling
The Who - Who's Next
Van Halen - Van Halen
Weird Al Yankovic - Running With Scissors

hmmm.... i should get started on homework now
 _____________________________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 6:48pm - University of Joe McNamara  ""]
of course i like the crue
and mortiis
but mortiis isn't metal anymore so i didn't list him
i wanted to be 'open minded' enough to only list metal bands

the pogues would have been on my list, if i should fall from grace with god is the best album ever made.
 ________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 7:07pm - retzam ""]
Devin said:Metallica - Master of Puppets
Iron Maiden - Powerslave
Pink Floyd - Dark Side of the Moon
Opeth - Blackwater Park
Pink Floyd - The Wall
Tool - Aenima
Nine-Inch Nails - The Downward Spiral
U2 - The Joshua Tree
In Flames - The Jester Race
AC/DC - Back in Black
Guns n' Roses - Appetite for Destruction
Death - Symbolic
Slayer - Reign in Blood
Shadows Fall - The Art of Balance
Sex Pistols - Never Mind the Bollocks Here's the Sex Pistols
Strapping Young Lad - City
Death By Stereo - Into the Valley of Death
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath
The Doors - The Doors
The Beatles - "The White Album"
Jimi Hendrix - Are You Experienced?
AFI - The Art of Drowning
Judas Priest - Painkiller
Bob Dylan - The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan
Thrice - The Artist in the Ambulence
At the Gates - Slaughter of the Soul
Pantera - Vulgar Display of Power
Pink Floyd - Wish You Were Here
Bob Marley and the Wailers - Exodus
Motley Crue - Dr. Feelgood
Sepultura - Chaos AD
Deep Purple - Machine Head
Led Zeppelin - "Zoso"
Dream Theater - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Fear Factory - Demanufacture
Iced Earth - The Dark Saga
Nevermore - Dead Heart, in a Dead World
Iron Maiden - Dance of Death
Iron Maiden - The Number of the Beast
Pink Floyd - Animals
Metallica - "The Black Album"
Lamb of God - As the Pallaces Burn
Megadeth - Peace Sells... But Who's Buying?
Testament - The New Order
Meshuggah - Destroy Erase Improve
Nirvana - Nevermind
Opeth - Morningrise
Morbid Angel - Blessed Are the Sick
Ozzy Osbourne - Blizzard of Ozz
Black Sabbath - Heaven & Hell
Black Sabbath - Paranoid
Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime
Queensryche - Empire
Rage Against the Machine - The Battle of LA
Rolling Stones - It's Only Rock n' Roll
The Beatles - Abbey Road
Run-DMC - Raising Hell
Rush - Signals
Sublime - Sublime
System of a Down - Toxicity
Talking Heads - Remain in Light
Talking Heads - Speaking in Tongues
The Doors - LA Woman
Dead Kennedys - Fresh Fruit for Rotting Vegetables
The Misfits - Earth AD/Die Die My Darling
The Who - Who's Next
Van Halen - Van Halen
Weird Al Yankovic - Running With Scissors

hmmm.... i should get started on homework now



This list is awesome.
 ___________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 7:20pm - dyingmuse ""]
NO ITS NOT THAT LIST IS GAY
 _____________________________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 7:21pm - Unviersity of Joe McNamara  ""]
dyingmuse said:NO ITS NOT THAT LIST IS GAY


haha, good gracious tensions are high
this time i can't be blamed
 ___________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 7:46pm - dyingmuse ""]
lol ac/dc...come on..they are the most un origional band on the planet
 _____________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 9:03pm - Ninkaszi187 ""]
Samael "Ceremony Of Opposites"
Bathory "The Return"
Venom "Welcome To Hell"
Carnivore "Retalliation"
Mercyful Fate "Mellisa"
Order From Chaos "Stillbirth Machine"
Slayer "Hell Awaits"
Acid Bath "When The Kite String Pops"
Godflesh "Streetcleaner"
Dark Throne "A Blaze In The Northern Sky"
Impaled Nazarene "Latex Cult"
Kreator "Pleasure To Kill"
Exodus "Bonded By Blood"
Voivod "Killing Technology"
Mayhem "De Mysteriis Dom Satanas"
Rotting Christ "Thy Mighty Contract"
Eyehategod "Dopesick"
all Burzum
VON "Satanic Blood Angel"
Morbid Angel "Altars Of Madness"
all Faith No More
Mysticum "In Streams Of Inferno"
NON "God And Beast"
all Dodheimsgard
Carnage "Dark Recollections"
Grave "Into The Grave"
Aspyx "Last One On Earth"
Tiamat "Clouds"
Sepultura all up to "Arise"
DRI "Dirty Rotten LP"
first three Carcass
Skinny Puppy "Vivisect VI"
all Mr Bungle
Fantomas "The Directors Cut"
Joy Division "Closer"
Wumpscut "Embryodead"
Destruction "Infernal Overkill"
first two Incantation
DOM/Womb split cd
Emperor/Enslaved split cd
all Impetigo
all Sigh
Turbonegro "Ass Cobra", "Apocalypse Dudes", "Scandinavian Leather"
Misfits (glenn era only)
Samhain "Initium"
Neurosis "Enemy Of The Sun"
 ________________________________
[Oct 30,2003 10:10pm - jesus ""]
Hilary Duff - 'Metamorphosis'
 ____________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 1:13am - BornSoVile ""]
University of Joe McNamara said:the pogues would have been on my list, if i should fall from grace with god is the best album ever made.



Well farewell you streets of sorrow....
 _____________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 8:24am - abadoodityrightder  ""]
..."of one blood" by shadows fall has always been a record that rocks me pretty thurough
 _______________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 8:47am - joe/notcommon ""]
dyingmuse said:lol ac/dc...come on..they are the most un origional band on the planet


WHAT?!
 __________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 9:06am - thegreatspaldino ""]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! GORGOROTH?!?! ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! yeah.. its a top ten all right... one of the top ten albums that are an even bigger waste of time than Louie Anderson's life.


 _____________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 9:07am - RustedAngel ""]
morbid angel - altars of madness / domination / gateways
the crown - deathrace king
carcass - heartwork / wake up
meshuggah - chaosphere
decapitated - nihility
opeth - m.a.y.h. / blackwater park
candiria - beyond reasonable doubt
darkane - rusted angel / insanity
devin townsend - terria
acdc - back in black
death - sound of perseverence
extreme - pornograffitti
cannibal corpse - hammer smashed face / tomb / bleeding
van halen - 1984
cradle of filth - cruelty and the beast
arch enemy - stigmata
origin - III
krisiun - ageless venomous
children of bodom - hatebreeder
pantera - cowboys from hell / far beyond driven

all i can think of right now....
 _______________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 9:07am - joe/notcommon ""]
thegreatspaldino said:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! GORGOROTH?!?! ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! yeah.. its a top ten all right... one of the top ten albums that are an even bigger waste of time than Louie Anderson's life.





i have a gorgoroth cd, definately not a top 10 but it's pretty good stuff
 __________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 9:26am - thegreatspaldino ""]
please dont say you have "destroyer"... that album is flat out GARBAGE
 _____________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 9:31am - RustedAngel ""]
gorgoroth - crushing the scepter (the only really good gorgoroth song)
 ______________________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 11:05am - University of Joe McNamara  ""]
thegreatspaldino said:please dont say you have "destroyer"... that album is flat out GARBAGE


no, i have the cd incipit satan.
it's good, dirty black metal.
and 2 of the songs are almost indentical musically, but one is all chanting in german, sounds like a white power rally speech or something
 ___________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 11:27am - thegreatspaldino ""]
well that is acceptable... just as long as it isnt Destroyer.>:]
 ______________________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 11:28am - University of Joe McNamara  ""]
thegreatspaldino said:well that is acceptable... just as long as it isnt Destroyer.>:]


haha, shit that CD must be terrible for you to hate it so much.
i don't like gorgoroth enough to go out and get more of their cds
so i doubt i will ever hear that one.

i don't own much black metal because Immortal is better then most of them.
i know ascendancy will hate me now, but I despise that band Marduk
 ___________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 11:32am - thegreatspaldino ""]
yeah man... Destroyer is basically jsut a bunch of noise with blast beats slower than Cannibal Corpse. there MIGHT be one cool riff on that cd. but unfortunately, you cant make anything out. i hate it more because people were heralding it as a masterpiece and when i heard a couple tracks from it i wanted to die. just avoid it at ALL costs
 ______________________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 11:37am - University of Joe McNamara  ""]
thegreatspaldino said:basically jsut a bunch of noise with blast beats slower than Cannibal Corpse.sts


actually sounds like something i'd like.

sounds like a description of watchmaker, but I doubt they are as good as watchmaker, or sound much like watchmaker at all.

WATCHMAKER 'kill.fucking.everyone'
www.willowtip.com go buy it

 ___________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 11:48am - thegreatspaldino ""]
University of Joe McNamara said:

actually sounds like something i'd like.

sounds like a description of watchmaker, but I doubt they are as good as watchmaker, or sound much like watchmaker at all.

WATCHMAKER 'kill.fucking.everyone'
www.willowtip.com go buy it





i know the vocalist's twin brothers... i actually went to school with em
 ________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 12:37pm - DeOdiumMortis ""]
University of Joe McNamara said:i know ascendancy will hate me now, but I despise that band Marduk


You're officially not my friend anymore.
 _________________________________________
[Oct 31,2003 3:50pm - attendmyrequiem ""]
i wouldn't be friends with anyone who likes jewel anyway.
 _______________________________________
[Nov 1,2003 9:07pm - meshuggah1324  ""]
MESHUGGAH - DESTROY ERASE IMPROVE
MESHUGGAH - CHAOSPHERE
AT THE GATES - SLAUGHTER OF THE SOUL
SCARVE - LUMINIFEROUS


Reply
[login ]
SPAM Filter: re-type this (values are 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,A,B,C,D,E, or F)
message

top [Vers. 0.12][ 0.008 secs/8 queries][refresh][