Elitism[views:6046][posts:50]____________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 1:01am - BornSoVile ""] Lots of people hate it and some people love it. I still havn't heard a definitive explanation of it however, so that means it's something different to each of us. People say certain bands have the elitist mindset too, give examples please. Discuss and don't be afraid to write a diatribe. |
| ________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 1:10am - Abbath ""] i think mikey from opeth difinatly has an "elitist" mindset, that guy works on music daily and is around for every piece of recording to make sure everything is right i think elitist are both good and bad, some bands work fine when a person or few know exactly what they want, while other band mates end up getting pissed off and killing each other like mayhem |
| __________________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 3:20am - TheGreatSpaldino ""] an elitist is someone that that believes that a certain mindset, way of life, style, etc etc is better than everything else and does nothing but try to prove its superiority at every moment possible. they are usually fairly close-minded and often preach that what they like is the best and thats that. also an elitist looks down with a severe sense of "blue-bloodedness" upon people that just get into the thing that they are tirelessly preaching onto the masses. which is pretty fucking hypocritical seeing as that they are the ones that want their "thing" to prosper over its "rivals". but yeah... think "tr00 black metal" and you have elitist. |
| __________________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 9:56am - Triumphant_Gleam ""] true Black Metal? what about those hardcore kids that rag on metal yet listen to Overcast or the kids that think black metal is gay because of the imagery? this whole thing can go in circles. Elitist = someone who believes they are better in typically non-physical/non proveable ways. |
| _________________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 10:06am - Josh_hates_you ""] if i time travel back to 1984 and grow a mullet, drive either a camaro or a trans am and listen to dokken, judas priest, and iron maiden, then could i be elite?? |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 12:28pm - the_reverend ""] abbath, you are confusing "elitist" and "perfectionist"/"anal" |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 12:35pm - dreadkill ""] the_reverend said:abbath, you are confusing "elitist" and "perfectionist"/"anal" exactly what i was thinking. mikael isn't like that. he even said that he thinks devildriver is good. if he was an elitist, he wouldn't have said that. i don't even think he's a total perfectionist either. i've read interviews with him saying there were screwups on certain albums and they just left them because it gave the songs character, and he has also mentioned going into the studio to record songs they had only practiced once, to give the recordings more of a loose feel. |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 1:52pm - Joe/NotCommon ""] I am the perfect example of an elitist. |
| ________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 2:12pm - Abbath ""] dreadkill said:the_reverend said:abbath, you are confusing "elitist" and "perfectionist"/"anal" exactly what i was thinking. mikael isn't like that. he even said that he thinks devildriver is good. if he was an elitist, he wouldn't have said that. i don't even think he's a total perfectionist either. i've read interviews with him saying there were screwups on certain albums and they just left them because it gave the songs character, and he has also mentioned going into the studio to record songs they had only practiced once, to give the recordings more of a loose feel. ok ok i'm sorry i don't want no trouble! i was confussed about it but i just threw it out there, i'm not saying mikael is and asshole or nothing, but i just got confussed with the perfectionist thing |
| ___________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 2:28pm - dreadkill ""] no trouble intended dude. i understand where you are coming from. just throwing out my thoughts on the elitist thing. there seems to be a lot of them in this area unfortunately. |
| __________________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 2:54pm - TheGreatSpaldino ""] Triumphant_Gleam said:true Black Metal? what about those hardcore kids that rag on metal yet listen to Overcast or the kids that think black metal is gay because of the imagery? this whole thing can go in circles. Elitist = someone who believes they are better in typically non-physical/non proveable ways. obviously i wasnt saying that the tr00 black metal people are the only people that are elitists, i was using them as an example. hooray for lack of reading comprehension! |
| __________________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 3:21pm - xModelxEighteenx ""] sweet example spaldino...for another example of elitism, we could take a look over at the post you made immediately bashing a new band asking for a fair shake at shows in MA... |
| ________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 3:25pm - morkul ""] ooooooooohh, is this a fight about to begin? I've got popcorn, give me a minute for it to pop..hahahahahaha..... |
| __________________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 3:35pm - TheGreatSpaldino ""] xModelxEighteenx said:sweet example spaldino...for another example of elitism, we could take a look over at the post you made immediately bashing a new band asking for a fair shake at shows in MA... i could care less whether you get shows or not, i was just telling you that your name is above and beyond the definition of "lame". maybe if you, ya know... got rid of the X's, the number, the first word too, and maybe add some cooler words in there... you might have a respectable moniker. thats all. |
| __________________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 3:37pm - xModelxEighteenx ""] arent you in tyag? |
| __________________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 3:40pm - TheGreatSpaldino ""] nah... thats some other Spalding... |
| __________________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 3:49pm - xModelxEighteenx ""] cool. cuz that spalding, OMG what a fag...id like to kiss that fag so hard he died. |
| __________________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 3:50pm - TheGreatSpaldino ""] 3//////////////////D~~~~~~ |
| ________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 7:35pm - retzam ""] e|lit|ist or é|lit|ist, adj., n. -adj. 1 of, having to do with, or favoring elitism. 2 of or having to do with the elite. -n. a person who favors or supports elitism. e|lit|ism or é|lit|ism, n. 1 rul ore government by an elite. 2 the championing or support of such a rule. e|lite or é|lite, n., adj. -n. 1 the choice or distinguished part; those thought of as the best people. 2 a size of typewriter type, smaller than pica, equivalent to 10-point printing type. There are 12 elite characters to the inch. -adj. distinguished. That should clear things up. |
| ____________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 8:16pm - BornSoVile ""] elistists are every where, black metal, death metal, hardcore, grind, emo, punk, Oi!, jazz... basically I view them as those who are intolerable towards anyone who likes other music that isn't the elitists' favorite. I still feel there's more to discuss though. is elitism derived from the concept of True Metal? Why do many people hate the concept of True Metal?? |
| ________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 8:51pm - retzam ""] True Metal? I think lots of Death and Black metal fans hate the label of "true metal". Lots of people look down on all kinds of metal that aren't like Maiden or Priest or even Metallica. Death and Black fans tend to think more "Dude! Metal is metal!" There is the opposite too. People who only tolerate death and/or black metal, claiming that is "true metal". It is an elitist point of view, most definately, but it isn't really as common anymore. |
| ________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 8:52pm - retzam ""] All of that is, of course, my opinion. Kind of an "in my experience" thing. It might not apply at all for some people. |
| _______________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 11:07pm - the_reverend ""] spaldino = choco-cat elitist. yearbook quote: "if it aint from japanland, it's from crapland." |
| __________________________________ [Mar 31,2004 11:58pm - Terence ""] I used to be an elitist. |
| ____________________________________ [Apr 1,2004 12:02am - BornSoVile ""] It's ok Terence. I still love you. |
| ______________________________________ [Apr 1,2004 12:14am - the_reverend ""] rumor around providence is you still are. |
| ____________________________________ [Aug 14,2005 6:07pm - BornSoVile ""] I've come to the conclusion that production snobs as well as technicallity snobs are worst than all previous assumptions and presumptions of most black metal elitists. Why is this? It's not exactly like black metal elitists are extrememly aggressive in supporting/denouncing the popular sterotypes that have plauged them for years. Not only have they at times removed themselves for several of these behaviors, but they come to openly embrace it as well. I feel also that their cause is one they support "wholeheartedly" and have constantly done so for quite sometime, thus making them hard targets for accusations of forgery in metal. Now with the pending issue of the production/technical elite. I feel it is not only extremely possilbe but very much real, that these folks are perhaps the most intolerant, ignorant, close minded bunch in the history of music. The whole notion of "if it ain't technical, it ain't good" completly denounces the decades of work laid down by several forefathers of metal, who were more interested in making music out of emotion, rather than outwitting the audience and their peers. Concerning the hatred towards raw production, it might be wise for these folks who criticize works of lesser production value to understand that them, themselves are guilty of sucking cock in order to attain a higher level of consumer popularity and general fame. Even though these fuckers are releasing prestine sounding material, they completly lack the glory, valor and heart that many more underground bands possess. I feel it's right to mention that they're are elitists everywhere, in every genre, state, and continent. Conserning this area however, I feel these snobs have greatly effected and at times crippled in particuarly the local music scene. Just because something isn't at the palladium, or it isn't on a major label, typically is their basis for not supporting a show or band. It's quite sad to realize that some of the biggest elitists out there don't even know they are ones. |
| ______________________________________ [Aug 14,2005 6:30pm - the_reverend ""] party poker!!!! |
| ______________________________________________ [Aug 14,2005 7:01pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] Of Elitism and War |
| ______________________________________________ [Aug 14,2005 7:06pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] On the technicallity arguement, while I enjoy some technical bands I really can't stand when people get into the "Well this pristine quarter sixteenth octave blah blah blah note really makes the song and without the perfect production you wouldn't hear it" Maybe I'm a philistine but I'd rather listen to The Ramones or Darkthrone blast through an lp in 25 minutes than listen to Rush or Yngwie Malsteem jerk off for a triple lp that tells the story of a cosmic dragon's journey through the modern world. |
| _________________________________________ [Aug 14,2005 7:13pm - Hell Cometh... ""] Elitism is everywhere... This is really evident in religion, politics, art, music, social status, etc. The list is never ending. It's human nature... |
| ____________________________________ [Aug 14,2005 8:02pm - BornSoVile ""] Hell Cometh... said:Elitism is everywhere... This is really evident in religion, politics, art, music, social status, etc. The list is never ending. It's human nature... Yeah, that's why I'm trying to keep the topic to metal only. |
| ____________________________________ [Aug 14,2005 8:03pm - RichHorror ""] I may be wrong, but I believe elitism is an old wooden ship. |
| _______________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 12:16pm - swamplorddvm ""] Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad. |
| __________________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 12:47pm - SacreligionNLI ""] i fail to see how elitism could be good... it's far better to be grounded |
| ______________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 1:16pm - Anthony nli ""] BornSoVile said:I've come to the conclusion that production snobs as well as technicallity snobs are worst than all previous assumptions and presumptions of most black metal elitists. Why is this? It's not exactly like black metal elitists are extrememly aggressive in supporting/denouncing the popular sterotypes that have plauged them for years. Not only have they at times removed themselves for several of these behaviors, but they come to openly embrace it as well. I feel also that their cause is one they support "wholeheartedly" and have constantly done so for quite sometime, thus making them hard targets for accusations of forgery in metal. Now with the pending issue of the production/technical elite. I feel it is not only extremely possilbe but very much real, that these folks are perhaps the most intolerant, ignorant, close minded bunch in the history of music. The whole notion of "if it ain't technical, it ain't good" completly denounces the decades of work laid down by several forefathers of metal, who were more interested in making music out of emotion, rather than outwitting the audience and their peers. Concerning the hatred towards raw production, it might be wise for these folks who criticize works of lesser production value to understand that them, themselves are guilty of sucking cock in order to attain a higher level of consumer popularity and general fame. Even though these fuckers are releasing prestine sounding material, they completly lack the glory, valor and heart that many more underground bands possess. I feel it's right to mention that they're are elitists everywhere, in every genre, state, and continent. Conserning this area however, I feel these snobs have greatly effected and at times crippled in particuarly the local music scene. Just because something isn't at the palladium, or it isn't on a major label, typically is their basis for not supporting a show or band. It's quite sad to realize that some of the biggest elitists out there don't even know they are ones. i agree with this very much but I should add that I think that well-produced CDs can have tons of raw power and emotion and I believe that technical music (if it's not just masturbatory), also can be very raw and powerful. If a band/artist makes a well-produced, technical CD because that's just what they're writing and it's real to them, then the good production and technicality shouldnt mean automatically that the whole work is forced or false. Example of an extremely powerful CD with alot of heart that happens to be really well produced: DEATH - The Sound of Perseverance Example of a really technical CD with alot of raw power: CRYPTOPSY - None So Vile I dont really have anything more to comment on the production issue, but in terms of forced technicality, I think a good deal of bands in the emerging tech-grind genre put lots of crazy riffs together and dont write real songs. |
| _________________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 2:50pm - SacreligionNLI ""] i fail to see what's wrong with going for good production. Wouldn't you want your music to sound the best it possibly can? I sure do |
| _________________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 2:50pm - SacreligionNLI ""] Even though that just so happens to be live... *hint, hint* |
| __________________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 2:55pm - BestialOnslaught ""] People that sit around complaining about elitists simply aren't elite. |
| _________________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 2:57pm - SacreligionNLI ""] ha...that didn't answer my question though :bartmoon: |
| ________________________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 3:08pm - whiskey_weed_and_women ""] [img] TRUE ELITISM ! |
| ____________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 4:05pm - BornSoVile ""] Anthony nli said:i agree with this very much but I should add that I think that well-produced CDs can have tons of raw power and emotion and I believe that technical music (if it's not just masturbatory), also can be very raw and powerful. If a band/artist makes a well-produced, technical CD because that's just what they're writing and it's real to them, then the good production and technicality shouldnt mean automatically that the whole work is forced or false. Example of an extremely powerful CD with alot of heart that happens to be really well produced: DEATH - The Sound of Perseverance Example of a really technical CD with alot of raw power: CRYPTOPSY - None So Vile I dont really have anything more to comment on the production issue, but in terms of forced technicality, I think a good deal of bands in the emerging tech-grind genre put lots of crazy riffs together and dont write real songs. yes, I agree with this statement. I fully agree that well-produced techinical albums can be just as good as anything else. My point is though, I feel many of snobs who refuse to listen to most elite black metal and shit soley cause it's underproduced are just as bad the people they're bashing. I'm not taking sides, whining or promoting, I'm just trying to have a dillegent analytical discussion about this shit. If each genre has their own sects of Elitists, it would be only natural for each sect to have seperate goals/motives. Is it safe to assume that generally speaking, when a band conforms to high class production, are they doing so in hope for profit more than valor???? I want to see what other people think. |
| ______________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 4:07pm - Anthony nli ""] BobNOMAAMRooney nli said: I'd rather listen to The Ramones or Darkthrone blast through an lp in 25 minutes than listen to Rush or Yngwie Malsteem jerk off for a triple lp that tells the story of a cosmic dragon's journey through the modern world. What if it was Rush and Yngwie? And the dragon's journey was an autobiographical, extended metaphor for Malmsteen's lifelong struggle to cope with the crippling emotional abuse he suffered as a child? |
| ______________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 4:23pm - Anthony nli ""] BornSoVile said: Is it safe to assume that generally speaking, when a band conforms to high class production, are they doing so in hope for profit more than valor???? I want to see what other people think. I think in some cases, that is a safe assumption. However, I think some artists make highly-produced CDs just because they are professionals and want to make the best album they possibly can for the fans and for their own artistic integrity. I dont think opting for a good production job necessarily means a band is aiming for profit - especially for an underground, unsigned band because the cost of a good production job is just going to plunge them further into debt. That's money invested just for the sake of the music that is, in all likelihood, not going to be earned back. As for people who refuse to listen to some music solely because it has raw production, I strongly disagree with that mentality. Some of my favorite records lack production quality but the quality of the music and the integrity of the individual musicians shines through anyways. |
| ______________________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 4:31pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] Anthony nli said:BobNOMAAMRooney nli said: I'd rather listen to The Ramones or Darkthrone blast through an lp in 25 minutes than listen to Rush or Yngwie Malsteem jerk off for a triple lp that tells the story of a cosmic dragon's journey through the modern world. What if it was Rush and Yngwie? And the dragon's journey was an autobiographical, extended metaphor for Malmsteen's lifelong struggle to cope with the crippling emotional abuse he suffered as a child? You just sold me on an album that doesn't exist. MAKE IT EXIST!! |
| ______________________________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 8:02pm - I Love to hate music I like ""] :shocked:Hey, stop picking on Greg...OK, so he hates everything and most people But.....An Elitist?....Oh, he just don't like his metal meshed with White belts and guys trying look like chicks.>:] |
| _______________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 8:39pm - niccolai nli ""] Perfectionism is fine in the sence it forces you to better yourself, but elitism is stupid in the sence that it blinds you from different outcomes, possabilities, and oppertunities. Unfortunately no one can be told what the Matrix is. You haveto see it for yourself. |
| _________________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 9:39pm - Hell Cometh... ""] As far as the whole black metal elite thing... Dark Throne to me has the best attitude, they simply don't care to be part of whatever trend is happening at the time. They isolate themselves from the "herd". Fuck the black metal "scene". |
| ____________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 10:30pm - eddienli ""] niccolai nli said:Perfectionism is fine in the sence it forces you to better yourself, but elitism is stupid in the sence that it blinds you from different outcomes, possabilities, and oppertunities. Unfortunately no one can be told what the Matrix is. You haveto see it for yourself. blinds or filters? |
| ___________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 11:39pm - Cecchini ""] lol, isn't this message board (myself included) a good example of elitism? |
| _______________________________________________ [Aug 15,2005 11:42pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] Hell Cometh... said:As far as the whole black metal elite thing... Dark Throne to me has the best attitude, they simply don't care to be part of whatever trend is happening at the time. They isolate themselves from the "herd". Fuck the black metal "scene". The Darkthrone attitude is pretty much in every interview with every black metal band ever "We don't listen to other black metal bands. We (and all of the side projects we're in with friends) are the only worthy group playing black metal today, those other bands are all posers." |